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Post by gboswell on Oct 31, 2011 10:17:05 GMT 1
Hello everyone, Kiki came to live with Krys, me and Jack the whippet on Saturday. I must first pay tribute to her two fosterer's Jane and Tiffany, they have been excellent. Its not been plain sailing since she got here, and I suppose I naively hoped it might. Jack has been a complete gentleman and I hadn't realised how wonderful a character he is. He has, unfortunately, continued to try to mount her, but that does seem to be decreasing. (She was spayed last Tuesday) I get the impression though that regardless of the fact Kiki is meant to be HIS companion, he occasionally wonders when the new bitch is going back to where she came from. They don't get on, she's decided she's taking over, he's becoming protective, particularly when he thinks she's attacking one of us, this is usually when she is trying to mount Krys (particularly) or me (rarely). Her background as a 'sex slave' might have something to do with her actions. She's stealing his toys (which he wasn't too bothered about until she came) and he look flabbergasted at her. When she sits where he thinks he ought to be he again gives her a "I can't believe you did that" look then sulks. I don't want om to be dominated as she's meant to be a friend to him not a cause of further angst. I am afraid of a protracted fight between them, but perhaps I'm being previous. She wolfs food even faster than Jack then wants to start on his, but I'm managing that. We didn't know - till Saturday - that she wasn't house-trained at 6 years old and although I have immediately instigated routines and processes we've had a fair share of 'accidents' already. I completely cleared my diary this week but by next week they will have occasions when they will be left to their own devices. I am concerned I'll return to battling dogs, blood, wee, poo and miscellaneous destruction. I'm reading everything I can but if anyone has any tips and techniques they've used successfully then I'd appreciate knowing them. I've never had two dogs before let alone introduce one to another. Advice greatly accepted! Geoff x
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Post by whippetywoo on Oct 31, 2011 11:31:29 GMT 1
Hello. I know nothing really - but do have 5 dogs (2 Whippets and 3 Chihuahuas). Your description sounds as if your 'only dog' Jack isn't used too used canine company and Kiki is trying to find her place in the pack (the pack includes the humans too). You might find it takes a little while for them to sort themselves out - hierachy wise - and it's natural for them to do this. It's also important to them what status they have and the underdog whoever it turns out to be usually accepts this (unlike us humans!) . Then things settle down. Obviously you cannot have a fight, but it might just be a time thing - a watch and wait and see. Sorry if this is not helpful - just my thoughts really...........
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Post by meggie on Oct 31, 2011 12:04:50 GMT 1
I've limited experience of this but have you tried introducing a crate for the new doglet? That way, she will have her own space. it may help with the housetraining and will be less stressful for you when you have to leave them home alone. I've always used a crate (until our latest foster that is). He isn't keen on a crate but fortunately gets on fine with our two other dogs.
Takes a while for the pack dynamic to settle. Hang on in there and with any luck, in a couple of weeks you'll wonder why you worried.
I'm sure there'll be other more knowledgeable folk along with advice very soon.
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jane
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Post by jane on Oct 31, 2011 13:03:21 GMT 1
Hi Geoff,
I'm also no expert, but as you know we fostered her for 2 weeks and met you and Krys and lovely Jack on Saturday. I'm so sorry to hear things are rather stressful. I think if you see Kiki's behaviour as an expression of her insecurity and attempt to find where she fits in this new dynamic, rather than just that she wants to dominate, then it makes it easier to understand and forgive her. She is such an affectionate and devoted little dog but is all at sea at the moment and has probably always had to struggle in the past. Just go on loving her even when it seems hard to do so.
I know how tenderly you and Krys feel for Jack with his health concerns but he is still an entire whippet (like my Tito) and he's probably much stronger minded and more confident than you think! My Tito really loves our rescue male and they are now brothers in arms but there was a time when I think he wondered if this interloper was going back! Your two I'm sure will be fine, it's just this difficult settling-in time.
The crate idea certainly helped when she got too excited (we fostered her when she was about to go into season and then after her op when her hormones were a bit haywire) - she was happy to go into it and it allowed her and our male dogs to relax.
After her op she did try and mount my arm a couple of times when I was sitting on the sofa but I just told her firmly NO and gently held her down beside me until she relaxed and fell asleep on my lap. Don't see that as sexual, again it's just part of her struggle to find where she fits in her new pack.
I found her housetraining just needed the kind of routine and perseverance that one has to do with puppies and that you are doing now - I certainly hope she's still going brilliantly through the night, so you can at least relax then. Certainly if you're out of the house for a short time I would think that putting her in a crate wouldn't hurt and would put your mind at rest and also help with the house training.
It takes time and I hope that, as whippettywoo and meggie say, in a couple of weeks you will be gazing on your two whippets happily asleep in each other's arms and you'll think phew! thank heavens we've got here.
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Post by meddling on Oct 31, 2011 21:34:59 GMT 1
Having met Kiki just once, I do think she is a naturally dominant bitch, and bitches in general tend to be top over any males around.
Just because she is dominant does not mean that Jack will not be perfectly happy if he does end up as second in command...it is a natural order in which they have to sort themselves out in, Bitches and Dogs rarely fight and the sexual tension will, the majority of the time will only be when owners are home
You say that she steals Jacks toys...she will not know they are meant to be his toys, surely they are now their toys?
The house training is just a case of back to basics and I'm sure a clever girl like her will pick it up soonest
Good Luck with this settling in period, she needs to know she is your dog as well as a friend for Jack, she needs the security of love after her dodgy start in life, and just needs to be able to show you all what a lovely girl is in there trying to get out and charm you all
Hope everything settles down now as you all get used to living together
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Post by rachelhayball on Oct 31, 2011 22:22:45 GMT 1
Hello Geoff, i hope our chat today helped. Ring any time x
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jane
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Post by jane on Nov 2, 2011 10:04:43 GMT 1
Hi Geoff I've been thinking about you all and how things are going. I realised that most of us who've introduced a second (and 3rd or 4th) dog into our pack go through a few weeks of hard work and adjustment (and sometimes panic!) - it's just that we forget!!! The outcome of a new personality in our lives and a more interesting dynamic in the household is so worthwhile that the labour to get there fades from the memory.....(Nick has been reminding me about integrating our lovely rescue boy)
You mentioned Kiki was interested in toys - that's so good, it took her about 10 days with us before she picked up a toy and I took this to be a sign of her relaxing a bit at last.
I also think she's such a sweet charismatic little dog everyone she meets remembers her - I was in our local park yesterday and all the old dog hands zoomed up to ask about her and send love. She'll be a terrific asset to your plans to have her and Jack as patting dogs in your community. Kiki was wonderfully responsive to my 91-year-old mother's chat and stroking and wanted to climb in her lap - which absolutely charmed mum.
The weather remains gorgeous and I hope you are enjoying some terrific walks and everyone is relaxing a bit - just off now with our two for a blast!
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Post by whippetywoo on Nov 3, 2011 13:02:51 GMT 1
Am I reading wrong, or did it not work out with Kiki? I thought I saw her on the rehoming page of the website. Shame if that's the case. I have completed the application form and we were offered Kiki as she sounded so laid back and 'easy'. But we MUST have a dog not a bitch and at the moment, our youngest one is very boisterous, so we need to let her grow up a bit first. If this is the case, I hope she does get her own permanent home soon as it's a shame she is being moved around a lot.
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Post by rachelhayball on Nov 3, 2011 20:17:01 GMT 1
Hello, Geoff and Krys had a bit of an failure of confidence and emailed us to ask us if we could take her back.
However i have had a good chat with both today and have reassured them that Kiki is displaying normal behaviour for a bitch from Kiki's background and in Kiki's situation and that it will take a while for her to settle in.
Krys and Geoff have decided that they would like to keep Kiki and keep in close contact with ourselfs for advice and reassurance.
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Post by babybean on Nov 3, 2011 21:20:00 GMT 1
I don't know loads about dog behaviour, but know a little, and can speak from my experiance with 3 rescue bitches (who now all get along well, 2 ex puppy farm dogs!)
Firstly you have to see it from Kiki's point of view, shes gone from being an ex breeding bitch (probably being pushed from pillar to post as they circulate dogs) to being in a foster home -and remember she could have never ever been in a home before!- for 2 weeks, then been moved again. They don't speak 'human' talk and so she'll be feeling majorly insecure and worried as to whether she is being moved on again. We have two ex breeding bitches, we rescued them directly and they were both basket cases when we got them (at seperate occasions) every day noises for example we take for granted such as washing machine, kettle etc is new. Smells of the new place, new dog, new humans etc basically a sensory overload.
All whilst this is going on she is having to work out boundries (because she wouldnt have been taught any being an ex breeding bitch, just left to fend with the other dogs!) work out who is boss etc. The mounting thing you talk about isn't her being over sexed or anything sexual at all. Her mounting yourself and Krys is her way of trying to see whether she is above or below you in the pack (You, Krys, Jack and Kiki are the pack now) a firm no and pushing her away if you're standing up, and if you're sitting down stand up and do the same. Jack mounting her could be slightly sexual as she only just has been spayed, but the most likely hood is that he's trying to assert his dominance with her. When they mount each other you must leave them to it, as they're sorting out who is in charge.
As for the whole toy issue, I personally would remove all toys for now. Give them all a good wash, and then only let them play with them when you see fit. That way it shows your authority to both dogs, that the toys belong to neither of them and they're your toys not theres. When you decide to let them play, if there is any slight tension between the two, play stops all together. Even if its just going to take it off another, a glare where the head is lowered beneath the shoulders and not blinking, etc that way they'll both learn that any foul play however little isn't allowed and all fun stops.
When Jack gets 'overprotective' you must tell him he is in the wrong, and give him a sharp 'No.' So he realises he doen't have to intervene and you are in charge, not him. This will ease tension for Jack so he can relax more as well as you.
I would say both dogs are doing fantastically and getting along well from your description to be honest. No growls, or snaps or anything. They are new friends, and working each others personalities out and getting to know each other. It's like yourself in a bar, you wouldnt run up to someone and be there best friend would you? You'd first get to know each other, work out each others personalities and see who is most dominant. Let them sort things out between themselves, dogs and bitches together are the best combination. However you must be prepared that it is highly likely that Kiki will end up being top dog as she is a bitch. Jack won't mind this to be honest as they're not like humans and the trouble is people (I myself am guilty of this too sometimes) try and humanize their behaviour and emotions and think they feel the same way we would do as humans. Jack will just think ok she's in charge, oh well I'm still fed, loved etc thats all that matters. He'll suck up to her and actually having a more dominant dog makes them more affectionate towards one another and much more likely to get along.
Housetraining wise, think of her as a puppy. As soon as she gets up, take her outside for a wee. Arm yourself with a treat, give her a weeing command 'wee wees' or similar and then treat her on the spot where she does it and make a big fuss. Then every hour or two take her outside again and repeat the process. Also straight after meals, go straight outside with her again. Eventually she'll learn, and be prepared for the odd slip up, she is only a dog after all. She has probably never been properly house trained, if shes ever been in the house before! None of my 3 girls were house trained, now they all are. Lydy we only got end of Aug and she is now too. You just have to again think from her point of view. When she does have an accident, show her it, say 'No' then put her outside and say wee wees and praise her if she does.
Food and meal times, will come with time. She will probably have been used to having to eat as much as she can, as she wouldnt be sure when her next meal would be. (ours were like this!!) When she has finished hers and goes to eat from Jack's put her back to her original place and say 'No, wait' and keep doing this until she does. Again it takes time but persevere and it will be worth it.
Finally I highly recommend purchasing a crate until Jack and Kiki have been together for a good few months and are completly relaxed with each other.
I hope this helps and I hope you don't find me too bossy. It's just the way dogs think and a way thats worked for us 3 times. Our first girl Sparky was beyond terrible at house training, peed and pooped everywhere for the first few months as she was a stray and we knew nothing of her history. Now she is 100% sound and fantastic. Lydy our latest girly was the same, we got her end of Aug and the last week or so touch wood has been accident free and much less frequent. However she is still learning boundries, and yesterday tried a bin raid and learnt quickly that that doesn't make mum and dad happy. Bless her!
Kiki will come on leaps and bounds in time, thats all she needs, time love and perseverance. Just remember you must accept her into the pack and love her equally to Jack otherwise he'll pick up on that and do the same. Both Kiki and Jack are equals in your eyes, and once the pecking order between the two is sorted it will be fine.
Hope this helps! Amy
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jane
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Post by jane on Nov 3, 2011 23:39:25 GMT 1
wonderful news that Kiki's staying with Geoff and Krys and Jack. She is fundamentally a wonderful little dog who has coped so well with everything.
Great post Amy, what a star you are rehabilitating so successfully three little bitches from such unpromising beginnings. I bet they're devoted to you x
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